Talk:Vinland

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2025/February

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The article should NOT be narrowing things down to Newfoundland.

The opening paragraph was far better and 'neutral' before the revert of a few days ago. The underlined text below should be returned to the article. Newfoundland HAS NOT been fully accepted as Vinland as claimed. A very long list of credible sources, recent, and 'old', can show that northern Newfoundland has been rejected as Vinland.

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"Vineland, or Winland (Old Norse: Vínland hit góða, lit. 'Vinland the Good') was an area of coastal North America explored by Vikings. Leif Eriksson landed there around 1000 AD, nearly five centuries before the voyages of Christopher Columbus and John Cabot. The name appears in the Vinland Sagas. Its location along the North American Atlantic coast has been the subject of a long running debate among scholars, both professional, and describes Newfoundland and amateur. Some researchers believe the two Vinland Sagas describe Newfoundland. Others believe the two accounts point to more southernly locations for Vinland, in eitherGulf of Saint Lawrence as far as northeastern New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, New England, or New York. Much of the geographical content of the sagas corresponds to present-day knowledge of transatlantic travel and North America" Rockawaypoint (talk) 13:45, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

To be truly "neutral" this article needs to be revised so that it will "...explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias..."

The excavation at L'Anse aux Meadows itself directly refocused the search for Vinland farther south, - once the butternut hulls and burl wood were found and studied. I know of many people who believe Vinland was in Nova Scotia or farther south, but some editors seem to want to leave that very legitimate "side" out of the article. Mats Larsson will pass the test as a 'reliable source' I'm sure. His 1992 paper in 'Scandinavian Studies' sides with the view that Vinland was in Nova Scotia, NOT Newfoundland. Mats G. Larsson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Vinland sagas and Nova Scotia: A Reappraisal of an Old Theory", 1992

He wrote, "...In recent years, however, some scholars have argued against the conclusion that L'Anse aux Meadows represents the final solution to the Vinland question. Wahlgren is of the opinion that the details in the sagas make it necessary to search further to the south. He and other contemporary philologists suggest that vin in the Norse name, contrary to the position taken by Ingstad and some other scholars, must refer to grapes, not grass. Also Birgitta Linderoth Wallace, responsible for recent excavations in L'Anse aux Meadows, concludes that Vinland must have been located more to the south, probably in the Gulf of St. Lawrence."

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Other credible researchers think Vinland was not in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, but maybe as far south as New York Harbor. Pall Bergthorsson, the Icelandic Meteorologist for example. The archeological work at L'anse aux Meadows has NOT done anything to shut down the many other interpretations of the two Vinland sagas.

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From Wikipedia, - "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it.

All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Rockawaypoint (talk) 14:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Rockawaypoint (talk) 15:26, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

While it's true Wikipedia should be neutral, our form of neutrality depends on a lot of considerations regarding the appropriateness of a position. For instance we don't equally balance climate change deniers and climate scientists on pages regarding climate change.

This may not be as egregious but you do need to consider issues like academic domains. A meteorologist or a geographer interpreting a saga written four hundred years after the expeditions and drawing circles on a map is not going to be treated as equally significant to this topic to an archaeologist working at an excavation.

Frankly it's a mistake that this page devotes so much space as it does to "Where is Vinland" which is a question somewhat similar to "Where is Narnia". As this article is about the sagas more than it is about actual Norse settlement we should be focusing on the sagas as artifacts rather than trying to treat them as reliable history texts. Simonm223 (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your personal point of view. When you elevate archeologists above [all?] other academics in deciding "...where was Vinland?" you bring to mind archeologist Sarah Parcak, and the Point Rosse story.

Point Rosee - Wikipedia

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"...In 2015, Parcak stated that remains could likely be a "turf wall and roasted bog" iron ore; however, an excavation conducted in 2016 proved that she was wrong and that the "turf wall and accumulation of bog iron ore" were actually the results of natural processes."

"...In their November 8, 2017, report Parcak and Mumford wrote that they "found no evidence whatsoever for either a Norse presence or human activity at Point Rosee prior to the historic period" and that "None of the team members, including the Norse specialists, deemed this area as having any traces of human activity." Parcak has not applied for any new archaeological permits to excavate at Point Rosee since 2016. Rockawaypoint (talk) 15:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The best way to handle this neutrally would be to use the table at Talk:Norse colonization of North America/sandbox#Historiography or perhaps just the Vinland part of it Doug Weller talk 13:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

References

There is NO consensus placing Vinland in Newfoundland or New Brunswick.

The first paragraph of the "Vinland" article makes a false statement. It says, - "The name appears in the Vinland Sagas, and describes Newfoundland and the Gulf of Saint Lawrence as far as northeastern New Brunswick."

This is only an OPINION held by a small group of people. The only true consensus in the Vinland debate was reported by the reliable source "The Vinland Sagas" by Magnusson and Palsson in 1965 where on page eight they say that the "...majority of scholars..." had inclined to the view that Vinland was in New England." See also what they wrote on page 42. A majority of scholars STILL is in favor of New England as Vinland/Wineland sixty years later. The discovery at L'Anse aux Meadows has NOT diminished the validity of the New England theories that outweigh all others. This obviously upsets some people who want to 'keep' Vinland within the borders of Canada. But the weight of scholarly opinion STILL places Vinland/Wineland in southern New England. Why can't other editors come to grips with this??? Rockawaypoint (talk) 00:30, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

You have been explained repeatedly why sources from the 1960s are inappropriate. You have been explained repeatedly why the vinland sagas themselves are fictionalized and, as such, should not drive decisions about Norse colonization over archeological evidence. Present new reliable sources uf you have any. Otherwise there's nothing to discuss. Simonm223 (talk) 09:58, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not wasting my time rehashing the same sources. Easier to just revert bad edits to articles. Doug Weller talk 12:44, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes, it all comes down to the sources. You have a great deal of respect for Kirsten Seaver, Yes?? So, if she is using Magnusson and Palsson's book from 1965 "The Vinland Sagas" in HER book "The Frozen Echo," why is there such a problem here seeing Magnusson and Palsson's book used as a "source" in the Wikipedia article on "Vinland"?? Maybe it's because some people don't like to read on page 8, - "Every one of the theories put forward has had to disregard one or more inconsistencies between the two sagas or even within the sagas themselves; but, generally speaking, the most acceptable interpretation of the elusive information in the sagas suggest that Vinland was somewhere in the New England region, and the majority of scholars have inclined to this view.”

And, on page 42 they write, - "...in the end it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that Vinland cannot have lain very far from New England."

Why do you and other people here have such a major problem with that?? It is the ONLY true "location" consensus in the entire Vinland debate!! There is NO consensus concerning New Brunswick, Newfoundland or Nova Scotia! Here are the 'citations' in Kirsten Seaver's book, -- Page 25, "...The presence of wild grain and of grapes were not the only attractions in Leif’s Vinland. “Graenlendinga saga” notes that the days there were satisfyingly long even at midwinter: “...hafdi par eyktar stad ok dagmala stad um skammdegi.”  Magnusson and Palsson translate this as: “On the shortest day of the year, the sun was already up by 9 a.m. and did not set until after 3 P.M.” They note that this would locate Vinland between 40°N and 50°N, or anywhere between New Jersey and the Gulf of St. Lawrence.”

Page 334, footnote 36, Magnusson and Palsson,

Page 335. footnotes 39, 43 Magnusson and Palsson,

Pages 387 “Works Cited”  Magnusson and Palsson

The BIG question right now is, - where is the "source" that "reliably" reports as the current article says- "The name appears in the Vinland Sagas, and describes Newfoundland and the Gulf of Saint Lawrence as far as northeastern New Brunswick." That is ONLY someone's OPINION. Where is that 'set in stone' by a majority of scholars?? The 1965 book by Magnusson and Palsson is STILL being cited TODAY and is still considered to be a "reliable source." 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:D12D:38BC:AB02:7B94 (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Please remember to log in when you post comments. Simonm223 (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Sure, will do. I'm still a bit of a 'newbie' here. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

How is "Citation needed" added to this line in the first paragraph that has no citation??

"The name... describes Newfoundland and the Gulf of Saint Lawrence as far as northeastern New Brunswick." Rockawaypoint (talk) 22:53, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

The lede doesn't require citations - those are housed in the article body. Simonm223 (talk) 16:15, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

The lead is back to reporting .... falsely... that there is some type of 'agreement' that Vinland/Wineland was in Newfoundland and New Brunswick. That is believed by only a minority of researchers. Where is the "citation" for that statement?? How would you suggest this one be introduced into the article.... a citation from 1997. "...Helge Ingstad thought he had found Wineland but most scholars now agree that Wineland could not have been so far north and the site should be seen as a station on the way further south.” Thorsteinn Vilhjalmsson, Prof. Science/History, Uni. of Iceland. "Time and Travel in Old Norse Society," Disputatio, 1997. Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:39, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Since this is clearly a cherry-picked quote it would have to be contextualized and then assessed for whether it was due inclusion. Simonm223 (talk) 17:45, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

OK I've now read the article in question and the "most scholars" comment is pointing to a group of texts from the 1980s. How many times must you be told that we don't hold the scientific consensus of 40 years ago to be indelible? You persist in using archaic sources because the truth is that, in the intervening 40 years, there was a complete failure to find Norse settlements south of L'Anse Aux Meadows. This sheds some doubt on the speculation of historians in the 1980s about vikings in Virginia. Furthermore, as I shared with you in January, there are sources that contextualize the search for vikings in Virginia as being part of a settler-colonial project of historical myth-making. And the "can't be Vinland" argument depends on treating as factual a saga that included magic screaming fear weapons and a tribe of monopeds. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Are you familiar with Gisli Sigurdsson's 2004 book "The Medieval Icelandic Saga and Oral Tradition"? You seem to be pitching your own personal opinions and biases here. The Vinland/Wineland debate is still unresolved... it was NOT "concluded" with the discovery at L'Anse aux Meadows as some people believe. The debate has been under way for about 180 years now. Academic papers from "long ago" are still valid "today". Magnusson and Palsson are cited frequently even "today", like in 2018 and more recently. Why even Arthur Middleton Reeves is still cited today!! and his book was published in 1890!! Have you seen it?? Have you ever read it?? I believe you are 1] not well informed on the true state of the Vinland/Wineland "academic story," and 2] you are very afraid of the truth... that most research still places it in southern New England. Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Afraid? LOL please stop trying to make a content dispute about me. I am not afraid that there are vikings in Virginia. I am skeptical that trying to divine the migratory patterns of 1000 year old seafarers based on two fictionalized accounts of their trips is shabby scholasticism next to the harder work of actually finding sites. So far, in the 40 years since l'Anse Aux Meadows was excavated no sites have been found south of there. Period. Full stop. Perhaps Vinland was actually in Africa after all as some scholars have suggested. I don't really care personally. But I do care about POV pushing a bunch of outmoded histories in just because you think that there were Norsemen in New Jersey. Simonm223 (talk) 18:35, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Well, it's worth noting for you then that New York Harbor has been named as "Hop" by the former head of the Icelandic Meteorological Institute, Pall Bergthorsson, in his 2000 book "The Wineland Millennium; Saga and Evidence." He believes, as so many other respected researchers do, that some of the information in the two Sagas is based on real events, and that it does NOT conform only to Newfoundland and New Brunswick. Sorry, but you are trying to sell a very narrow-minded view of the sagas, - that is now outdated. 2601:18E:C380:1DC0:C85F:A6AA:C996:6CA7 (talk) 19:30, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Again, please log in before commenting. Simonm223 (talk) 19:50, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Logging in? Very minor issue, compared to this debate we are having over what is a "reliable source." Will you protest if the two books by the two Icelanders from 2000 and 2004, end up being '"cited" in the article?  I think you have forgotten that all these Wiki articles are supposed to fair and balanced, with a “neutral point of view” and tell both sides of controversial stories. We still have a controversy here.  Newfoundland was rejected a long time ago as Wineland.  It’s “…in the literature.”   Rockawaypoint (talk) 00:21, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Recent Reliable Sources?

Will there be any objection to cite, - Thorsteinn Vilhjálmsson, "Navigation and Vinland", in Approaches to Vínland: A conference on the written and archaeological sources for the Norse settlements in the North-Atlantic region and exploration of America, 2001 Rockawaypoint (talk) 00:41, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

And will there be a problem with using, - "MEDIEVAL NORSE VISITS TO AMERICA: MILLENNIAL STOCKTAKING" Richard Perkins, Saga Book, Vol. 28 (2004). Simonm223 was saying, - "You persist in using archaic sources..." which is NOT true at all. The sources that he wants to dismiss, but truly need to be here are NOT archaic. Magnusson and Palsson's book "The Vinland Sagas" is "cited" in the two sources above from 2001 and 2004. Isn't one of the 'criteria' for figuring if a source passes the 'test'... is that it has to be 'frequently cited'? The book by Magnusson and Palsson IS frequently cited today. Rockawaypoint (talk) 03:39, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

"MEDIEVAL NORSE VISITS TO AMERICA" only seems to contradict the content that Rockawaypoint aims to add to this article. It definitely doesn't support abandoning archaeology for some kind of return to literary analysis alone.

• On Manusson and Palsson's book: "It is true that, as Magnus Magnusson and Hermann P·lsson (1965, 43) suggest, stories about VÌnland could have been current in the seaports of Europe, for example, Bristol, in the fifteenth century. But the idea that Columbus got wind of them from whatever source (e.g. on a visit to Iceland, even during a sojourn on SnÊfellsnes) is conjectural. If he had thoughts in his mind of lands which lay beyond Iceland when he set out from Palos de la Frontera in Spain on his first voyage of 1492, these were scarcely reflected in the course he took: he headed south-westwards straight for the Canary Islands, whence he sailed to make his landfall on San Salvador in the Bahamas on 12th October of that year."
• On Vinland as a place: "And the two VÌnland Sagas, Grúnlendinga saga and EirÌks saga raua, while they pose many problems, tell a fascinating story, however true or false, of enterprising voyages, the discovery of grapes and other rarities in VÌnland and encounters with the inhabitants of the country. It is unfortunate, then, that the study of this subject has been attended by various less than satisfactory circumstances. The fact that the perceived importance of Norse landings in America for the history of that continent has been enormously exaggerated, and the fact that it was argued that the Norsemen (rather than, say, Christopher Columbus) discovered America, have led to unseemly dispute fuelled more by nineteenth- and twentieth-century-style nationalism than by scholarly debate based on any mature, long-term view."
• On "Hop" in New York: "There has been a tendency to identify the locations of the sagas with places well known in present-day North America; for example, the HÛp of Eir has been located at New York, the Leifsb˙ir of Gr close to Harvard University (see AV, 199). And such theories are often dogmatically presented. Often locations are suggested for place-names which probably never genuinely existed."

This is growing disruptive, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 16:59, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes, the "Archeology" at L'Anse aux Meadows is vitally important. See page 604 in "The Viking World", Stefan Brink & Neil Price, Editors, 2008. Birgitta Wallace no less has written, - "Another notion, that the reference to wine was simply an invention to lend Vinland a paradisiacal quality (Nansen 1911; Keller 2001), is contradicted by archaeological evidence that proves the Norse had indeed visited regions where grapes grew wild."

Ms. Wallace has also written "...it is impossible to equate northern Newfoundland with Vinland." [Page 300, "The Norse Atlantic Saga", Gwyn Jones, 1986] Rockawaypoint (talk) 20:27, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Kirsten Seaver wrote "...the debate still rages..."

Kirsten Seaver, who sadly passed away last year, is already recognized as a reliable source for this article.  Two of her books are listed, - footnotes 15 and 16, and some people here also know she wrote Chapter 20 in the Smithsonian book, "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga" 2000. Back in January Rjjiii wrote, - "When I was going through the Norse Colonization article recently her chapter "Unanswered Questions" was fantastic. Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 17:41, 12 January 2025. In that article Kirsten Seaver wrote, - “But while the site [L’Anse aux Meadows] constitutes indisputable evidence of an actual Norse presence in North America, the debate still rages about how far south the Norse went - in other words, where Vinland in fact lay -and about the very name of Vinland.”

The lead paragraph is incorrect and should be changed to report that Vinland’s location is still controversial.  The debate is still underway, at full speed, and NO academic consensus in favor of Newfoundland or New Brunswick exists as suggested in the opening paragraph.

Rockawaypoint (talk) 04:47, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Nothing has changed...? Yes, it has.

Newfoundland has NEVER been accepted as Vinland by "academia." Some people here believe it was, but that is far from the truth. What will be the 'down' side to bringing the 'Dispute Resolution' people into this??... to 'assist' in correcting the "Vinland" and "Norse Colonization of N, America" articles??

l

Rockawaypoint (talk) 06:53, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Simonm223, here is the quote from 2018 you will be interested in. I read it few times to be sure it really says "Cape Cod", [and] "New England." What will you say about this source? Gisli Sigurdsson is often cited today, just like Magnusson and Palsson. The key quote; "The interesting point in this context is that, when combined, the Vinland sagas draw up a coherent picture of the lands west and south of Greenland. Kjalarnes is mentioned in both texts and is located relative to other places with indications of sailing directions and other details. Thus, the sagas can be interpreted as two different reflections of stories in a common tradition which provided the audience in Iceland, many generations after the voyages were undertaken, with a reasonable idea of the scene in which they were set. It is an additional bonus that this coherent picture or mental map shows a great general resemblance to the geography and natural conditions on the east coast of North America, from Baffin Island in the arctic and south along the Labrador coast, Newfoundland, the Gulf of St Lawrence, Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, the Bay of Fundy, and even beyond Cape Cod to some river mouth in New England. This resemblance is hard to explain unless there was not only continuity but also authenticity in the storytelling tradition through the generations, and it generates two conclusions that must be addressed: first, the tradition can be shown to have mediated a coherent mental picture of the lands beyond; and second, this picture can be explained as a reflection of genuine memory of stories that have reached the writers of sagas after having been passed down, constructed and reconstructed by consecutive generations through the centuries from the time of actual voyages around the year 1000, rather than as a reflection of fiction or a constructed memory in the present of the saga writing (Gísli Sigurðsson 2004, 253–302)." https://www.academia.edu/72107450/II_36_Mental_Maps Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

My revert was because your copy was too general and reached the level of weasel words by trying to generalize from a single paper to a broad trend. Please feel free to discuss copy here and seek consensus for inclusion. While academia.edu isn't ideal for source reliability I had a look at the source and it seems to be from a legitimate publication. Simonm223 (talk) 18:51, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

It is highly legitimate. Did you by chance notice that Gisli Sigurdsson is also cited in the very next sentence, - following the one you deleted? You really do have some hard-and-fast opinions here that you are demanding we all recognize. If we can't work out some way to have the lead paragraphs acknowledge that the Vinland controversy is NOT resolved, and that New England is very much still in contention, we will have to seek 'dispute resolution' or whatever it is called here. Many people hold on stubbornly to the false notion that only amateurs place Vinland/Wineland in New England. Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

preview-9783110431360_A33481858.pdf Rockawaypoint (talk) 22:18, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

There is the original publication Gisli Sigurdsson's six page paper "Mental Maps" came from; year - 2018. Good time to remember that one of the 'faults' I'm alleged to have is that I always use "...old sources." Not true at all!! I should take the time to point out that Kirsten Seaver [1934-2024], who everyone here seems to know of, and has respect for, talks on page 281 of the Smithsonian book "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga," of three other books published between 1838 and 1845, that are "...still used today." Rockawaypoint (talk) 22:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Because there is no 'discussion' going on here right now, tomorrow I will try once more to rewrite the lead to the article to better report the true state of the Vinland debate... NO resolution exists today, and New England theories are still valid. If the edit I make is quickly reverted again, it will be time for "dispute resolution." The people who usually edit here are silent right now and they often push a false claim when they try to insist the Vinland sagas "...describe Newfoundland." Newfoundland has been rejected as Vinland many times by many "reliable sources", old and new. Gisli Sigurdsson certainly passes the test as a reliable, up-to-date source. Don't forget, he is cited in the article already, and he endorses New England as a one of many possible locations for Vinland. Rockawaypoint (talk) 04:39, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Rockawaypoint has been taken to ANI.

[1]Doug Weller talk 08:42, 2 May 2025 (UTC)